Are You in a Fat Ass Bubble?
by sylvia
Since I’m relatively new to Fat Acceptance, and I just recently started down the path of Sylvia-Acceptance, I’m still battling with caring what people think and trying to not let that affect me.
I think this entire FA community is awesome – whether we disagree whole-heartedly on how people handle things, or send out virtual hugs all around, it’s still a community and basically our primary purpose is…wait, is there only one primary purpose?
Well, hopefully you get what I’m getting at.
But I was at the grocery store the other day shopping for my parents, and putting stuff in my cart that I would never buy myself - twinkies, oreos, red meat, pork, cookies, etc. (yeah, I know, big surprise, because I’m a fatty). And when I was walking through the store, I thought to myself – “what do people think of me when they see what’s in my cart?” Of course, I’m banking a lot on people actually giving two shits about anyone else in the grocery store, but for the sake of my brain malfunction, what if they were looking and thinking “that’s why she’s fat”?
And yes, I know, why should I care, but as I mentioned earlier, I’m still trying to adjust to all of this. So my mind was consumed with these thoughts as I finished up the grocery shopping. And it wasn’t like I was upset because they were (potentially) thinking that, or neurotic about (I know, I was surprised, too), it just got me thinking.
The Fatosphere is great. I mentioned that earlier. No doubt about it. But are we isolating ourselves too much from the real world?
People say that the comment policy over at Shapely Prose makes them feel safe and comfortable. Well sure, if you restrict all the information going in and out, you can control a conversation so that no one has to be subjected to contradicting opinions. But that’s not reality. The reality is that out in the real world people hate people for what they look like, what their religion is, who they choose to love, or how they drive. That’s the nature of the human beast. Sure – it’s not unicorns shitting rainbows and puppy dogs on clouds making out with kitty cats every day, but who really wants that? Life is unfair. If everything was awesome all the time, or if everyone loved everyone, or if only justice was served always, how would anyone develop any character and rise above all the bullshit?
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that I realized yesterday that I’m sort of isolating myself. I love the support system that exists, but how am I functioning in the real world? Would I show my belly to one of my co-workers? Can I stop feeling embarrassed about what I’m buying at the grocery store?
God, I hope so.
I used to worry about stuff like the grocery cart… but then I asked myself how often I had the time or inclination to notice what was in someone else’s cart. The answer was… not too bloody often.
Really? I will usually only notice a cart if someone has a FULL FULL cart, and then what I am mostly thinking is… wow, they must have a huge family – what’s that bill gonna be?
So what time does everyone else have to notice what’s in MY cart? Hardly any, would be my guess.
Other people staring has become a phobia of mine. When I was with my partner (who cares less for health) I always found my cart full of junk foods and processed crap. Sometimes I would pretend to have to go to the bathroom so I wouldn’t have to go thru the checkout line. Other times I pick the fattest cashier and go to their line. It was a phobia I am trying to face now. Now when I go to the natural foods store I still wonder if people are staring at me and my one organic sweet allowed a week and smirking to themselves “this is why she’s fat.” Of course the bigger brain is telling that little annoying brain to stfu now. No more panic at the grocery.
Veronica is around 400 pounds and she does all the shopping. She has told me about people looking in her cart and the looks they give her. She eats how she wants to eat, so people’s judgments are reaffirmed and they feel justified in looking down on her.
But she is amazingly confident and really doesn’t give a rats ass what people think of her. If she wants a box of cookies, she’s going to buy a box of cookies, critics be damned.
I still feel kind of sensitive about it when I go shopping with her, like I don’t want them to think that’s why we’re fat. Like Hazel, I think about what the cashier must be thinking and am more comfortable with a fat cashier. But Veronica’s confidence gets me through. They’re thinking less about me and my eating habits than her and hers, since she’s much bigger than me. So, if it doesn’t bother her, why should I care.
Its not always easy accepting yourself, but once you reach a certain level of comfort, its well worth the struggle.
And I want a rainbow shitting unicorn, NOW!
Peace,
Shannon
Thinking about this very issue this morning. Still composing a blog post about it in my mind. I had a great conversation with my sister in law who told me that her problem with fat people is that they don’t do there civic share by taking care of themselves. They take up more room on the bus and more health resources, Basically her position was some of the basic prejudice we have all encountered. What was nice about the conversation ?? That she calmly and clearly and honestly communicated her thoughts to me. What I tried to do was explain to her that not all fat people are fat because they eat too much. She could not believe that. Then I tried to explain to her that even if only 5% of fat people weren’t responsible for it, didn’t that make her automatic impression of fat people unjust? Still, she couldn’t accept the possibility that there was someone out there. She said, put a 350 pound person in front of her that is in good health. Okay long comment… sorry… the thing I want to blog about is sort of a conversation primer when discussing Fat Acceptance with loved ones. I love my sister in law even though she is an uniformed idiot when it comes to Fat Politics. Since she is willing to communicate with me in a respectful, sober way, I am willing to talk to her about it. So that is my thought which I may or may not post about on my own blog. I think that being able to have sober, thoughtful conversation with those outside the “bubble” is something I want to be able to do. That has not been possible with some of my family members to date, but I remain hopeful…. and no-one gets to screw with my rainbows and unicorns anymore !!!
I still worry about the grocery cart. But I worry just as much when they see me buying hair dye, or large amounts of condoms, or monostat. It wouldn’t matter who you were or what size you were, you would always wonder “are people judging me by what’s in my cart?”. And know what? They are, and there is nothing you can do about it. So screw them. If they dare to open their mouths and comment on your cart? Well, that leads to the second issue of whether or not freindly spaces make us feel too comfortable: no, because this isn’t real life, this is the internet, and there are some unbelievably cruel people out there who use the internet as an opportunity to cause pain. They don’t care about you, or even that you are fat, they don’t have some “hurt fatty’s feelings” agenda – they have a seek and destroy agenda, they find the most marginalized group and take aim, and fat acceptance blogs (just like the fat kid in your class) get the brunt of that destruction. Destruction of emotional health is what I mean.
Part of accepting yourself, loving yourself, is being able to shut out, avoid, ignore things which hurt you, it’s being able to protect yourself because you are worthy of peace. One day a few years ago during an especially sad time in my life, I realized that I needed to love myself as if I really am my best friend. I know it’s such a cliche, and it’s hard to do, to love ourselves. But hey, don’t start with love, start with nurture and protection: Would a friend protect you from mean cruel people? Yes. So make sure to protect YOURSELF from mean cruel people, because you would do it for anyone you loved – hell, you’d probably even do it for people you don’t love, wouldn’t you? So why on earth not do it for yourself? Same goes for if people do make snarky comments in public, if you actually imagine that they just said that to your best friend, it gives you well – it just gives you a really interesting perspective on your reaction. You’re angry on behalf of your friend, embarrassed on behalf of yourself (at least for me it was) …
Really, think about how you would talk to your best friend, how you’d encourage and protect, but not excuse or enable: and then think about how you talk to yourself, and notice the difference. It’s sad, isn’t it?
I think that when people are first coming to FA, it’s useful to have a place like SP so you’re not constantly having to defend the self-acceptance you’re working to gain.
And, while I do sometimes wonder what people think of my shopping cart, I don’t especially care. Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s my privilege as a non-plus sized woman – who knows.
Okay, four things. First, I’d bet that damn near everybody reading your blog knows you rock. Just saying, though I know you’re trying not to care what people think.
Second, I damned well do want puppy dogs on clouds making out with kitty cats every day. I’m actually not sure how I survived before Cute Overload.
Third, I really believe that what we need in this modern world is a MYOB movement. The success of the anti-smoking movement has just given everyone the idea that it is okay to judge other people about everything all the time. What somebody else weighs or what they eat or how much they exercise or how much they cost the health care system is not the business of random strangers. The whole cost argument is infuriating. Do we get all pissy about how much people drive on the roads? Our tax dollars pay for that and I don’t drive! What about farm subsidies? I don’t eat meat. Why should my hard-earned tax money go toward subsidizing the poultry industry? You can go nuts demanding that everybody live in the way that profits you most or you can accept that public policy is made based on an aggregate cost/benefit analysis and then mind your own damned business in individual cases.
Fourth, I have occasionally thrown one or two really big vegetables in my cart — you know, like beets with the greens still on or a hubbard squash. I really get most of my fruits and vegetables at the corner grocer on my way home from work, but I am totally self-conscious about a full grocery cart without them.
The best way I have found to deal with this is to put the 5 boxes of wine I buy on every shopping trip on top of the food to hide it. That way every thinks I’m just a lush.
I am gonna try bianca’s wine box trick, but I am gonna use condoms and baby oil instead.. what will they think I am upto then?
There’s benefits and drawbacks. Having a completely safe place is insulating. It’s also escapist. I keep my blog pretty strictly free from diet or WLS endorsement, for instance, because I want there to be ONE FUCKING PLACE where I don’t have to listen to it. That’s good escapism. But I have noticed that after a few years in the Fatosphere I am more thrown and surprised when I do encounter fat hate. I have a moment of “seriously? Where have you been that you still think like this?” before I realize that if you don’t read the Notes or Fat Chat feed every day and you’re not immersed in the positive acceptance, this is all still pretty damn radical a concept for people to swallow. That disconnect bothers me. It’s easy to rest on small achievements and assume that they’re resonating loudly in the real world.
I do still worry about the grocery cart, and the restaurant ordering, and the eating in public. I made a lot of progress this summer on not caring if people thought I was a “bad fatty”.
Actually the most embarassing shopping trip was when I stopped at a big box store and didn’t realize until the checkout kid blushed that my basket only contained whipped cream, condoms, a jar of vaseline, and duct tape. They were all completely unrelated purchases, I swear. But really, who’s not going to speculate on that combination?
I think a major reason for the comments policy on SP is not to insulate and protect the community there from “reality,” but because almost all of the actual posts themselves are about, well, the horrendous stuff that we all (or sometimes, that only a few of us) have to deal with in “reality,” and it’s more productive for discussion to make a post about the bad stuff and then let people hash it out in a relatively douchebag-free environment. It’s meant to be a space for discussion and thought and community-building, not a boot-camp for All The Crap You’ll Run Into In Real-Life, and that’s why I appreciate it – I definitely take away a lot from those discussion to fortify myself with “in real life.”
Yes the people at SP insulate themselves. As a result their positions are intellectually weak. People and their opinions are only strong when rigorously tested by fire. The fatosphere is in general filled with weak and untested ideas.
That said it’s their right to attempt to insulate themselves in this webspace. They can never be totally successful because the big bad world is out there and it’s populated with people like myself. Further, I know how much of an asshole I am so why wouldn’t people want to insulate themselves from me?
I do judge fatties when I see garbage in their carts. It’s reflexive and natural, like judging a hot girl who walks by and taking a second look. No, I don’t say anything because it would be bad form to comment on people just going about their day. They didn’t start a blog and put themselves in the line of fire.
To illustrate the fact that you aren’t all just imagining the rest of us judging you, I have an anecdote. Once my gf and I were in a restaurant and she and a fat woman were approaching each other down a medium sized aisle. As it became clear that they would not both fit in the aisle at the same point without some adjustment, my gf let a scowl cross her face. The fat woman seemed to sense this disgust and sheepishly apologized to my gf for, I don’t know, being fat and taking up so much room.
When my gf sat down I asked her if she realized the nature of this exchange and she said she did not. I told her she clearly had a scowl on her face, but she just didn’t believe it! I asked her if she was disgusted and she of course said yes.
Point is people like us exist and I can see why fatties would like to insulate themselves from us. Too bad for you guys that there are so many of us.
lavendercat – I understand about the “productive discussion”; however, what irritates me about SP is that the same humans at Shapely Prose determine what information goes out (in the form of posts) and what information come in (by approving comments). They are controlling what information is being seen by their audience, so in that way, they can skew the information however they want. If someone disagrees with them (not a typical “you’re fat” troll), their comment can easily be dismissed or labeled as “trolly” and “douchey”, so that no real discussion takes place, just a rehashing of the same ideals and ideas over and over again. Sure, here at ZC we’re not going to let typical trolly behavior through, unless we can make fun of them at their expense. But if a someone comes around and comments on of our posts, and they have something interesting to say, and I don’t agree with it, and maybe it even hurts? Guess what? I’m approving it. We’re approving it. Because what is the point in believing in something or standing up for something if all you’re doing is bouncing those ideas and ideals off people WHO FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY YOU DO?
I guess that was the point I was trying to make in the post. Or at least one of the points.
tom brokaw – touche. I don’t appreciate the “fat = disgusting” tone of the comment, but your comment sure was timely.
See, this is how I feel most if not all of the time. I’m super self conscious. I have a hard time in public because I feel like everyone is judging me for being fat. I know this isn’t necessarily true but once I step outside my instincts and paranoia take over. Fighting this knee jerk reaction is really difficult. I think having safe spaces online is what keeps me sane most of the time. I know the internet isn’t the real world, that’s why I’m here, to get away from all that crap. The internet is also a place of extremes; you have very safe safe zones and then you have super insane hateful trolls that say things online they would never dream of saying in the real world.
Tom Brokaw = My first troll. Ignore him
Shannon hon, tom brokaw has been in love with us since way before you were around. Quit trying to poach our trolls.
Also
fuck this shit. I don’t back down, or apologize to anyone for being me.
I don’t spend a lot of time at shapely prose, so I don’t really know a whole lot about the comments. I would say it is nice to have a safe space, but it is also nice to dialogue and be able clearly articulate your point. You’ve done a wonderful job here doing that.
I used to feel the same way about hanging out with family (teh gays), because I felt protected. However… I also really like my straight friends who felt kind of ostracized when I just came out and loud and proud in a few days span. So, now I hang on both sides. And honestly, I’ve been working on FA less time than I’ve been out and proud so it makes more sense that I am more comfortable being gay. It just takes a while, that’s my theory!
Oh, Tom Brokaw trolls all the FA/Body Image blogs. He’s on We Are The Real Deal, too.
I can’t say that I ever cared about the grocery cart thing. Maybe that’s because I don’t give a rat’s about whatever anyone else is doing — they can go ahead and think their poison thoughts, doesn’t bother me a whit. In fact, it’s a bit cheering to think of them stewing in their hateful juices. Tee hee.
More and more I think of people who go around comparing themselves visually to others must have really pitiful lives and must not accomplish much. Or, if they have other success in life, their priorities must be pretty fucked up, which makes them all the more pitiful. They like to think they’ve got it all under control because of a waistline under X inches, but really they’ll more a bag of mess than any “disgusting fatty” who has made peace with their body not meeting some kind of arbitrary (and ever-changing) set of measurements.
Yes, the real world is always out there. You can’t really isolate yourself from it, at least not permanently. But sometimes it’s a life preserver to have a place where you can put it on hold for a bit while you gather your reserves to head back out into the fray.
Or to put it another way, sometimes you feel like arguing; sometimes you don’t. So it’s good to have different spaces you can choose from.
The safe spaces are also a necessary counterbalance to the unending bias of reporting out there. Because if you just listen to the mainstream media, you start to wonder why anyone bothers to continue to live since it’s just one unending scary ordeal/war/fire/battle/accident/medical issue after another. But that’s NOT how it is – there’s lots of good stuff happening. The mainstream media just doesn’t tell you about it much, if at all. In this way I consider the fatosphere a very important part of my information gathering – like all information sources, of course there’s a bias, but they do publicize studies and the like that other media doesn’t.
Or even another analogy: when you’re in school, when you’re in your history class, you don’t expect them to start discussing physics. Just because physics isn’t brought up doesn’t mean your teacher or fellow students don’t know about it – they almost certainly do. But this class, this space, is for discussing history.
And so goes the fatosphere.
The only reason that I look into someone’s cart at the grocery store is if I see a very PACKED cart – or if I see an inordinate amount of junk food in their cart – and especially if they have kids. I really don’t care if they’re fatties (because I am one – size 18 thank you very much), the only thing that I care about is that they are teaching their children bad nutritional habits. I don’t mention it or stare…I just shake my head and move along.
The thing is, I have just gone gluten-free. Most junk food has wheat somewhere in it (because it’s cheap, among other reasons), meaning that my gluten free “junk” foods (bought at a health food store) will be 3 or 4 times more expensive than their wheat-containing ones. Needless to say, I don’t buy many gluten-free specialty foods. Too expensive.
I never really liked junk foods, anyway, even when I was a kid, so I do get curious every now and then about why people like things that taste….fake….chemical.
Tom! Glad to see you are back! Can I get you something, a drink, a Baby Jesus butt plug (http://www.divine-interventions.com/jackhammer.html)perhaps? And let’s not forget your lovely gf, (http://www.divine-interventions.com/jackhammer.html), we wouldn’t want her to feel left out! Yes, ppl like you exist. Was it your kids that set the 15 yr old on fire in Florida? I wouldn’t be a bit surprised, hatredd is learned at mommy and daddy’s knees.
I’m with ya BigLib, those ppl have way too much time on their hands worrying about what’s in other ppl’s carts. Oh well, they’ll die of heart disease and muscle wasting and cancer from all the crap they shove in to try to keep themselves thin, while we sail on.
Let’s all get together and hit the grocery store, and buy nothing but cases of condoms, whipped cream, chocolate syrup, and KY jelly. Too much fun!
Are we isolating ourselves? Hell yes! And I think we should. We *should* have spaces where we *don’t* have to defend our right to be treated as human.
The argument for not deleting trollish comments often goes, “We should get tougher skins because this is what the real world is like” (and WATRD tried that line of reasoning) but that presumes that we don’t deserve any time off from the nearly 24/7 barrage of messages saying we not only will die but should die, as soon as possible (and until then, we ought to hide).
I suspect that this line of reasoning is based in the idea that FA people are just this side of delusional and that we’re going to fall off the cliff of delusion if we aren’t reminded, at every turn, every *moment* of the day, that we *should* hate ourselves. And this presumes it’s even possible to be so insulated.
I mean, I can’t watch “Bones” (which I like) without having to watch/mute/ignore a Weight Watchers commercial. I can’t read the newspaper without seeing five headlines about why I’m going to die/costing people money/ruining whole industries/etc. ad nauseum.
The idea that I should have these messages with me all the time in order to “toughen up” is just ridiculous, and kind of troubling. And it also presumes that there’s a level playing field. I mean, consider that Troll Brokaw’s asshattery is purposefully hateful and yet merely mirrors prevailing opinion about our self-worth. And we should give room and space and time for those words in order to seem like reasonable, non-isolationist people?
Then run back to the safety of SP Miriam. Should you not leave Zaftig for those fatties with a bit more intestinal fortitude?
This is the reason that I encourage “non-fats” to read my blog. Because a) I want them to hear my voice as a fatty, and b) because I want to have an idea of where I can get through, where needs work.
That said, I will not tolerate anyone who is “hating” on my blog. On ANY of my blogs, not just my FA blog. Because I have the right to demand respect and civility in my space.
It’s a fine line, I know, but as long as you’re walking it, you’ll be groovy.
I look at grocery carts a lot, but mostly to see signs of somebody having a party (beer, ribs, snack food, etc.) When I see cookies and junk food piled up, I just assume they have kids. So you never know what people are assuming when they look at your cart.
I think you’ve got this the wrong way around;
Well sure, if you restrict all the information going in and out, you can control a conversation so that no one has to be subjected to contradicting opinions.
That is the real world. The fatosphere exists because we’ve allowed ourselves to get caught up in the unreality of the crisis. Like you said, you’re still getting used to not caring what others think.
Until we work through these feelings we will always be on the run. If a POV, is false, it has to be constructed only to shore itself up.
If I ask you to prove to me that you’ve got a head, you’d probably tell me to stop being silly or you’d ask me to prove that it is possible for you not to have one.
If you pander to me and behave as if you need to prove anything, you are already on the back foot. It is interacting on those terms with others that is weakening us. This is the reason for the shame.
It shouldn’t matter than we are being judged unless we allow it too. It’s tough, but no guts no glory as they say.
The problem is, we all expect other people to change, when it is we that need to change. We need to stop indulging non arguments.
The fatosphere is an attempt to re-learn how to do this.
Why should I isolate myself because the majority of people are bigoted idiots, for the most part? Miriam, if this is what you choose to do, that’s your decision. I prefer to be out, loud and in your face. I would bet that the majority of you are not old enough to have lived through the civil rights movement. So ppl like Tom think we should crawl away. Whoo. Do I look impressed? Come talk to me after you have had a beating and a broken arm by 4 blonde blue eyed white girls (myself), because you were an Indian. (American, not Eastern, altho they have experienced it also) Come talk to me when your good friend was stabbed 47 times and thrown in a stock pond because he had the poor taste to be gay (My friend Ron Running Fox). Go talk to the families who had their children removed from them because the county thought they were Satanists because they were not Xtain. Boohoo, ppl call us fat. Whoo. So what?
“The moon is not shamed by the barking of dogs” Southwest Indian proverb
“The battle is won by not fighting” Shoalin proverb
Why waste time by arguing with bigoted idiots? And one from me…..
“I don’t hear stupid”
I don’t feel like SP is a safe place from anti-fat trolls (although it does provide that security), I feel it is a safe place from non-feminist supports of FA.
I have no problem with the comment policy at SP, in the sense that its their blog and they can moderate how they want.
But to act like they’re only moderating the rude, obnoxious, anti-fatty messages is misleading. Although they don’t delete opposing viewpoints, there is this pack mentality where differing opinions (not rude or anti-fat, just differing) are treated as heretics to be burned at the proverbial stake.
This makes a safe place for SP apostles, but not for those in the FA community who wish to participate, but don’t want to be verbally spanked for independent thinking.
Again, its their blog, their policy, but I disagree that its a “safe space” for anyone other than those who subscribe to their narrow beliefs.
Peace,
Shannon
I think it’s only fair to note that the fatosphere is not the only place that’s an online bubble–most of the internet is. Often, comments that are not in the “party line” of a blog are deleted and commentators banned. And in non-moderated sites, you can tell who is used to being in their ideological bubble. They are the people who, if you post factual information against their viewpoint, will just disappear rather than engage you.
fuck this shit. I don’t back down, or apologize to anyone for being me.
Same here. And Tom, I would have knocked your ugly skinny bitch over with my beautiful fat ass if she got in my way. Fuck you and feel free to die in a fire – you’d be doing the planet a favor.
Miriam Heddy, this is the way I see comment moderation:
It’s like your home. Would you let any person into your home, then proceed to let them rob you and trash the place? Of course not. When you let trolls into your comment spaces, this is exactly what you are doing. You are showing that you have NO respect for your blog and for those who inhabit it. Homes have locks and alarm systems for a reason, ya know.
Trolls like tom brokaw are the internet equivalent of criminals. They exist to rob you of safety and peace of mind.
Shannon hon, tom brokaw has been in love with us since way before you were around. Quit trying to poach our trolls.
You’d do best to get rid of him. See my last comment. Have some respect for yourself. The only reason he comes around here is because you give him access to act like an asshole. Most FA blogs have had the good sense to get rid of him, because I’ve yet to see what he has contributed to any blog – ya know, besides inspiring pity in those who can see through his internet tough guy act.
http://tinyurl.com/yl8wpyx
Um Sarah,
Can you please explain to my not good sense having self, why what you said was not on par with trolling? Instead of calling us ugly fatties, you said we have no respect for ourselves. If tom said that, I’d tell him to kiss my fat razor burned ass. Or probably roll my eyes, and ignore his comment.